Black Holes

[InVasMani]

Could the universe expand and wrap back around to the point of singularity and repeat a similar cycle all over again? Will it always expand outward in the same direction away from the point of singularlity or could it stop expanding all together?

 

[Shrek]

The observational evidence shows it is not only expanding but actually expanding faster and faster; which came as a big surprise.

 

[InVasMani]

Oh yeah I believe I saw something on that awhile back. Just the same how are we to know if it will continue indefinitely. At the same time what is continuing to cause it to do so!? Just makes you wonder more things about it.

 

[Shrek]

We don't; but there is good reason to suppose it might continue.

There are no proofs in science, that is why math is a separate subject.

 

[qubit]

@Ahhzz well, scientists know it's about 13.8b years old, so I'll go by that. Of course, there are still a lot of mysteries, including exactly how the Big Bang happened and precisely when. That's such a tough question that I'm not too sure man will ever know, unfortunately.

Not at all. The Big Bang theory posits that all the mass in this Universe was contained in an ultra massive Black Hole that at one point, for some reason, erupted into the Universe we know today. What triggered that eruption has yet to be determined but we can conclude, based on well established observations, that the theory has very strong merit, even if we can not readily explain what triggered the "Big Bang".

You're missing the context here as the other member thinks it's possible to escape from inside the event horizon through chemistry and magnetism, when it's clearly not. It's not possible to escape it all, in fact, not even light as I'm sure you know.

Also, a black hole has only three properties, mass, spin and electric charge.

Outside it, in an accretion disc, of course chemistry and magnetism matter, plus an awful lot of heat. The combination of these interacting with the BH can cause those awesome relativistic jets astronomers sometimes see.

Finally, interesting how he's ignored my post, isn't it? Most likely because it doesn't fit with his narrative.

 

[InVasMani]

Accelerating Universe depiction looks like a self oscillation waveform.

Here's something interesting to go with that. There is a space theory for just about everything it would seem. The depiction is pretty neat though and presents itself as feasible at a glance, but in actuality there probably things that make it not the case or contentious with other prevailing theories. The models look really cool though. Tornado's and whirlpools and things are scary, but they are very cool looking from a safe distance.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Could the universe expand and wrap back around to the point of singularity and repeat a similar cycle all over again?

Very unlikely. The Universe is expanding out in all directions equally and it is not expanding along a curve.

You're missing the context here as the other member thinks it's possible to escape from inside the event horizon through chemistry and magnetism, when it's clearly not. It's not possible to escape it all, in fact, not even light as I'm sure you know.

You're right, I think I might have missed what they meant.

scientists know it's about 13.8b years old, so I'll go by that.

That's only a theorized estimation. It is not a concrete number.

 

[mb194dc]

The Universe Could Start Shrinking 'Remarkably' Soon, Scientists Say

After nearly 13.8 billion years of nonstop expansion, the Universe could soon grind to a standstill, then slowly start to contract, new research published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences suggests.

www.sciencealert.com

A new kind of cyclic universe

Combining intervals of ekpyrotic (ultra-slow) contraction with a (non-singular) classical bounce naturally leads to a novel cyclic theory of the unive…

www.sciencedirect.com

If the universe does cycle infinitely, then every possibility for it will also ultimately happen. Including our own existence and every possibility for it.

 

[Space Lynx]

The Universe Could Start Shrinking 'Remarkably' Soon, Scientists Say

After nearly 13.8 billion years of nonstop expansion, the Universe could soon grind to a standstill, then slowly start to contract, new research published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences suggests.

www.sciencealert.com

A new kind of cyclic universe

Combining intervals of ekpyrotic (ultra-slow) contraction with a (non-singular) classical bounce naturally leads to a novel cyclic theory of the unive…

www.sciencedirect.com

If the universe does cycle infinitely, then every possibility for it will also ultimately happen. Including our own existence and every possibility for it.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Every possibility for it? No way. In no reality for example would I take my PS5 right now, climb my roof, and sit it on a tree limb in the middle of a lightning storm.

In no reality will that happen. I can think of a million absurd things that will simply not happen in any reality, therefore, making your statement false even in an infinite Cosmos.

 

[mb194dc]

I'm not sure I agree with this. Every possibility for it? No way. In no reality for example would I take my PS5 right now, climb my roof, and sit it on a tree limb in the middle of a lightning storm.

In no reality will that happen. I can think of a million absurd things that will simply not happen in any reality, therefore, making your statement false even in an infinite Cosmos.

If the probability is higher than zero, then it will happen on an infinite timeline. As you say, the probability of that is likely zero. Hard to say exactly though, there could be things that effect your behaviour that would make it happen.

 

[lexluthermiester]

If the probability is higher than zero, then it will happen on an infinite timeline. As you say, the probability of that is likely zero. Hard to say exactly though, there could be things that effect your behaviour that would make it happen.

We're getting off-topic here.

 

[hat]

Could the universe expand and wrap back around to the point of singularity and repeat a similar cycle all over again? Will it always expand outward in the same direction away from the point of singularlity or could it stop expanding all together?

There's a theory for that called the Big Crunch. It's one of the three end of the universe scenarios that I am aware of, and it's by far my favorite one. The Big Crunch theory says that the expansion of the universe will eventually slow, stop, then finally begin contracting until all the matter in the universe is in the same place again. It's possible that a Big Bounce would occur... that is, another Big Bang, starting the whole process over again.

 

[Space Lynx]

There's a theory for that called the Big Crunch. It's one of the three end of the universe scenarios that I am aware of, and it's by far my favorite one. The Big Crunch theory says that the expansion of the universe will eventually slow, stop, then finally begin contracting until all the matter in the universe is in the same place again. It's possible that a Big Bounce would occur... that is, another Big Bang, starting the whole process over again.

I have been thinking of the way gravity works, you know those images we see of like planets around the sun? (gravitational field models)

something like this for example.

what if black holes are actually the good guys of the universe? and without their might and power sucking, the acceleration would actually be faster?

the acceleration of galaxies moving away from each other I mean - sort of like the Big Crunch, but instead with a SNAP what if gravity is like a like layer - and as the universe that we can see continues to expand - gravity "stretches" so that image above, the curve will be less and less over time - but black holes being so immense (since almost every galaxy requires a giant one at the center to become a galaxy) act as the ultimate form of gravity, insanely hungry and dense - preventing this SNAP

but still eventually someday, trillions of years to the upteenth power ---- bla bla bla - SNAP and it doesn't just go slow. the universe snaps back into the big bang AND SIMULTANEOUSLY explodes into another Big Bang event - there is no beginning and no ending? there is no infinite regress problem, existence simply is?

maybe someday humans will be around long enough, to see if gravity "diminishes" in strength... as it continues to stretch, we probably haven't lived long enough as a species to be able to observe this one way or another...

its also possible I am losing my mind. so take everything with a grain of salt.

I wonder how I can ask questions to Dr. Becky, I want to ask her this... its just a random idea. I am sure someone like her though would instantly look at it and be like oh you are way off and here is why, lol which I would welcome, I just like learning.

maybe I am limited in my thinking because I am picturing the SNAP in two dimensions, like a blanket stretched out by two people to its max flat level... but the Cosmos isn't flat at all, and that image above, works in all directions, the gridline is just there to help our small brains understand... so....

stretch and SNAP... but...

yeah I have lost my mind, I give up

edit: the idea is the black hole is creating a super like grid pattern - as seen in the image but billion fold bigger or w.e (I am not a math guy) and this is why every major galaxy (I think) has a massive black hole at its center - a pre-requisite so to speak of stopping the expansion, hmm wrong word, slowing it down within the galaxy it exists within... but also simaltanousely the galaxy's combined gravity on a bigger layer of the Cosmos that we can not observe nor measure - slows down the expansion itself... hmm, but nothing can ever stop the expansion. and if the expansion between galaxies accelerates at a compounding speed - which I think is the case last I read... its like the two people holding a blanket, they are both pulling the blanket would lift more slowly at first, as there is so much "droop" but as both people walk back slowly... towards the end as the blanket becomes more "taut" it would account for that compounding interest, but again I am only thinking in three dimensions here or is the blanket example only two?

edit 2: I guess I just need to research more the relationship between black holes and gravitational fields... then perhaps I can refine what I am thinking... though I am not convinced that is pre-requsite knowledge for what I am contemplating here, for this is on a plane of existence that we can't compute - the interconnections of it all... hmm I don't know. sleep time.

I just always thought of black holes as scary + bad... but in reality they may be our saviors, built into physics - the symphony of physics - like so many other things, that enable stability long enough for life to exist

A way for the Cosmos to know itself ~ Carl Sagan

Edit 3: Why does the Cosmos want to know itself? Why is it inherently built into physics everywhere I look, a symphony of symbiotic relationships?

Edit 4: What if our self-aware state of being was meant for so much more than the way we actually live our lives? What are we missing? What if when we finally can understand black holes, why they exist at centers of galaxies, why this and why that, what if when we truly know the Cosmos we will be able to form a symbiotic relationship with something bigger than we ever imagined?

Edit 5: How do I think beyond this plane? -X, +X, -Y, +Y

I need a better example...

 

[emothxughts]

Black holes, the place where the things I drop on the floor go to, never to be seen again by anyone in the entire universe...

Jokes aside, I have always wondered what exactly is inside a black hole, classical physics says there is a singularity of infinite density, quantum physics hates the idea of such a singularity.

 

[Space Lynx]

Quote

Black holes, the place where the things I drop on the floor go to, never to be seen again by anyone in the entire universe...

Jokes aside, I have always wondered what exactly is inside a black hole, classical physics says there is a singularity of infinite density, quantum physics hates the idea of such a singularity.

feed the grid baby - slow down the demise!

now to feed myself - to slow down my demise!

grilled cheese and tomato soup for me tonight.

 

[qubit]

Jokes aside, I have always wondered what exactly is inside a black hole, classical physics says there is a singularity of infinite density, quantum physics hates the idea of such a singularity.

That's where general relativity breaks down. Some scientists think the singularity is some kind of seething energy of finite size, not an infinitely small point, which seems a lot more sensible to me. Unfortunately, there's no way for us to look beyond the event horizon to study it. Perhaps one day we'll find a way, but not now.

 

[Space Lynx]

That's where general relativity breaks down. Some scientists think the singularity is some kind of seething energy of finite size, not an infinitely small point, which seems a lot more sensible to me. Unfortunately, there's no way for us to look beyond the event horizon to study it. Perhaps one day we'll find a way, but not now.

I'm probably wrong, but I think a black hole takes things into a different plane of existence, one that affects the gravitational field of all the Cosmos - but we can't measure it, because it is literally effecting scales we can't contemplate - not direct, local, or even interplay between galaxies - bigger

 

[InVasMani]

I think magnetic fields, temperature, and chemistry all plays roles. I still feel the magnetic fields are kind of key to better understanding everything. You have to account for chemistry and temperatures though when thinking about those as well since different things play off of each other in different ways and yet it's all interconnected at the same time.

 

[the54thvoid]

Just for some perspective on scale, and how we are ill-equipped as humans to comprehend the universe. Consider the ADA 102 chip. It's 24.6mmx24.6mm (give or take).

That's this big:

Now, consider we, as humans, have the technical ability to put 76 billion transistors onto that surface. In my mind, that is beyond comprehension; the scales at which we work with at present defy belief. And yet, this is nowhere near the quantum scale. Again, think: 76 billion working units inside that small space. We can do that now.

It should be readily apparant that most humans can't even imagine the scales (they can be represented as models) but to try to unravel the quantum scale in relation to our perceived world is futile. To do that, very clever people use mathematics. Mathematics, a specific branch of it, is the language of quantum understanding, and even then, it's still hazy. There are very few folk on this forum who can even understand that math.

My point here is that there are many people who try to reduce the complexity of a black hole into something that is tangible, and that is just not possible. We can observe their effect; their place in space and time. But the inner workings defy all conventional logic. We've got a very long way to go before we can say for fact, what bizarre occurrences happen within one.

 

[Space Lynx]

Just for some perspective on scale, and how we are ill-equipped as humans to comprehend the universe. Consider the ADA 102 chip. It's 24.6mmx24.6mm (give or take).

That's this big:

View attachment 285647

Now, consider we, as humans, have the technical ability to put 76 billion transistors onto that surface. In my mind, that is beyond comprehension; the scales at which we work with at present defy belief. And yet, this is nowhere near the quantum scale. Again, think: 76 billion working units inside that small space. We can do that now.

It should be readily apparant that most humans can't even imagine the scales (they can be represented as models) but to try to unravel the quantum scale in relation to our perceived world is futile. To do that, very clever people use mathematics. Mathematics, a specific branch of it, is the language of quantum understanding, and even then, it's still hazy. There are very few folk on this forum who can even understand that math.

My point here is that there are many people who try to reduce the complexity of a black hole into something that is tangible, and that is just not possible. We can observe their effect; their place in space and time. But the inner workings defy all conventional logic. We've got a very long way to go before we can say for fact, what bizarre occurrences happen within one.

I agree with you 100% and like your example, but I still think it is fun to try.

I always give the example of people on a much smaller number than billions, even a football stadium with 80,000 people, like literally just trying to contemplate that number as you look over the people (count a cluster of 100 people then another cluster) and realize your inability to perceive number sets in full - our brains simply can't compute. Some Astrophysicsts do a pretty good job of helping us understand numbers though, Carl Sagan's "Calendar" for example in the Cosmos series really was quite impressive, especially when we consider he came up with it on the fly basically. Dr. DeGrasse Tyson does a good job too in helping us expand how we can digest such large numbers in some of his podcasts. Using the right analogies, and growing them organically - we can get somewhere - but ultimately never fully in comprehension

 

[qubit]

My point here is that there are many people who try to reduce the complexity of a black hole into something that is tangible, and that is just not possible. We can observe their effect; their place in space and time. But the inner workings defy all conventional logic. We've got a very long way to go before we can say for fact, what bizarre occurrences happen within one.

When I read explanations of black holes in science articles, they often explain that time and space change place inside them, ie time becomes space and space becomes time since gravity is now stronger than the escape velocity of light. I don't understand that, do you? I'll bet not many people do.

Yeah, black holes are weird - and get weirder the closer one looks at them. Fascinating objects and completely terrifying, too. I'm so glad that our galaxy's black hole is 26000 light years away and hence couldn't possibly hurt us. But, yet, we orbit it at this distance. Wow.

 

[Shrek]

There is a proposal that time stops at the Horizon and does NOT start up again below, i.e. it is only space inside a black hole.

(PDF) Cosmic censorship and the evaporating Black Hole (researchgate.net)
equation 15

Disclosure: I happen to be first author

 

[the54thvoid]

There is a proposal that time stops at the Horizon and does NOT start up again below, i.e. it is only space inside a black hole.

(PDF) Cosmic censorship and the evaporating Black Hole (researchgate.net)
equation 15

Disclosure: I happen to be first author

Way over my head, I'm afraid.

 

[Shrek]

OK, with your permission I'll give it a try...

Imagine for a moment two co-accelerating spacecraft; the leading one sends a signal back toward the trailing; that signal being synced to the leading craft clock. Now, it will be received by the trailing craft, but by then that craft has sped up (it is accelerating) and so will receive it blue shifted, and will conclude that time in the leading craft runs faster than theirs.
Now we are almost finished: Einstein's equivalence principle says gravity is equivalent to an acceleration and so time deeper in a gravitation well runs slower (this has been measured on the Earth by Pound and Rebka in 1959).

A black hole is just the extreme case where time has come to a relative halt at the Horizon.

My small contribution is that time having come to a halt at the Horizon, it does not start up again below; that happens when one assumes a vacuum solution below the Horizon, as one supposes that things fall below the Horizon, which should be questioned, not assumed.

 

[the54thvoid]

Oh yeah - I know that (proven true I think?) by the need to change GPS timings to correlate to their higher speed of travel cf. to the ground - it's the other stuff you speak of.